An Interview with Stanley McCall
Jan 17th, 2008 by Brian
Stanley,
Thank you for taking the time to open our eyes to different ways of corporate worship. Just from a few previous comments on another post, I have found that you guys “do” church a little differently that us in Arkansas. So I would like to find out what a typical service would be like. I am excited to be able to share this post with other members of the music ministry and leaders at Faith.
First of all, feel free to answer these questions when you get a chance. Also, I know that you are probably busy so I am going to keep the interview to no longer than a week. Also, I want to ask other readers to refrain from asking questions until I ask. Comments are allowed from other readers, but please limit the questions to the end. If any other reader may have a question, please email them to me.
Stan, Toronto is much different than us southern-country folk. There are just about two different people here. We have a southern-American culture along with a huge hispanic culture. But I hear that Toronto has many people groups. If this is true, how does a church minister to all the people in Toronto? Is it hard to do evangelism within Toronto? So I guess the first question is, what is Toronto like?
Toronto is huge, but we all live in in our own neighbourhood and witness to the people we come in contact with. I actually live in Ancaster which is on the outskirts of Hamilton. There are many nationalities and in speaking with people you have to understand where they are coming from. Jesus said “go ye into all the world and preach the gospel” He is not telling everyone to go out into the mission field but to go out into the world where you live and preach the gospel.
Here in the Southern States, there seems to be a slight struggle between the young and the old. Although this is not really an age thing, but a mentality on how ministry should be done. So basically we have two different ways of being culturally relevant to the people in our culture. One of which is very traditional, the other is more media, music, and sight-needs driven. But different cultures do not really exist here. The closest Muslim is about 3 hours away. In the malls and in the workforce here there are no Asians or Middle Easterns. Chinese restaurants are run and operated by Hispanics. So we are very foreign to what it would be like to live around Muslims, Asians, Buddhists, and Middle Easterns. Even the lost here do not actually challenge the fact that the Bible was written by God. There are no atheists either. So we are right in the middle of the Bible belt (we don’t always act like it) but we are very sheltered from other cultures and ideas.
I really wanted to bring out the cultural difference between Texarkana and Toronto because it is all about worshiping God and serving others in the culture that you are in.
1) So if I were to show up to your church on a usual Sunday, what would I see? Is there a welcome team that greets me or helps park my car? Is there a place for children? Would their be pews, chairs?
2) Also, what would take place from start to finish? I know you touched on this one on an earlier post, but please explain for those who might now just be joining us.
We live in a multicultural society and it is hard to get people to talk about God. You would never get Muslims or Buddhists coming to church. I find it hard to believe that everyone down there is Baptist. We have Baptist, United, Pentecostals, Christian Reform, Jehovah Witness, Mormon, Catholic and Brethren churches just to name a few that call themselves Christians. There is more than one form of Baptist just as there more than one form of Brethren churches.
Some times differences are slight and other times they are extreme. For example the Jehovah Witness do not believe in the deity of Jesus Christ so how can they be Christians and how can they possibly worship God as the House of God?
In Revelation we read of God taking away the lamp stand from churches because of sin and they were not following God’s way. So if we want to be a Church of God (bible term) we have to live holy lives and do it God’s way. This is a principle that started back in Genesis where God did not recognize Cain’s offering because he did not do it God’s way.
Cain was an individual. There came a time when God wanted a people to follow Him and worship Him and so He picked the people of Israel. To get a full picture of collective or as you would say corporate worship you have to study the tabernacle. The bible tells us that the tabernacle is a figure (picture or parable) of times now present.
However that is not answering your questions. I belong to a brethren church, meaning there is no paid minister. Some refer to us as the closed brethren meaning we have a closed table. Corporate worship (to use your term) is by people in the corporation. Our churches are small, in fact our church in Hamilton is one of the larger ones having about 75 members. Our churches are united all over the world so that when a baptized believer is added to the local church he actually becomes a member of the fellowship of churches which form The House of God. When I go and visit the church in Denver I take a letter of commendation from my elders which is read to the church in Denver and I can then take part corporate worship of that Church.
Now to answer your Question. If you were to visit our church you would be met at the door and welcomed. If you were not a member from another church with a letter of commendation it would be explained to you that the church is going to have a worship service and you are welcome to stay and observe how the church worships God. You would be given a bible and hymn book and you would sit in one of the back rows.
One of the things you would notice is that all of the ladies are wearing a head covering, as members enter they put money in a collection box at the back of the church before they sit down and there is no piano.
The meeting begins when the brother who has been at the door comes in and sits down. A brother will rise and go to the table and give thanks for the bread and brake it and it will be passed around for all the members of the church to partake of. Then the same brother will go back to the table and give thanks for the wine which will be poured out and passed around for all the members of the church to partake of. The rest of the meeting will consist of brothers worshiping god in prayer or giving out a hymn. None of the prayers or hymns are prearranged and yet very often you will find that there has been a theme to the meeting.
There is often time of silence between people taking part which allows brothers who do not like speaking in public and sisters to worship God silently.
The meeting will last for an hour or a little longer if people are exercised a lot. The meeting is closed when a brother gets up to make the announcements.
There will be a 10min. brake and then a brother will minister on the Word of God for half an hour. Following that we have an adult and young peoples bible classes for about half an hour.
During the worship meeting there is a Sunday school for the young children. Parents don’t like to miss the remembrance of the Lord so they will teach their children to stay upstairs till the first hymn.
If you needed help parking someone would help you but we don’t have a team at the door because people like to sit and meditate before the meeting starts. Yes we have pews.
We have outreach meetings in the evening, we have a kids klub every second Saturday and we have youth work in someones home. We also go to a seniors home once a month. At our mid week prayer meeting we usually get at least 60% attendance and there is not much quiet time between brothers taking part.
This is a rather long answer, everything we do is bible based, if you want me to give you the scriptural reasons for anything I can do that but it might take me a little longer to reply.
This is really interesting. I assume that the singing of hymns is done without accompaniment?
During the sharing of God’s Word, is it more of a open forum where someone is allowed to ask a question, or is it more of a closed forum where the one who is speaking is the only one allowed to speak?
The reason why I ask about the parking is because there are so many churches around here, that it almost fills to be a little competition among other churches.
Our church, as well as many churches around here, have a huge issue with complacency. People just like showing up for church to make them feel good about what all they did throughout the week. The transformation is not totally apparent. But this is the biggest issue to overcome in our culture. What would you say is the biggest issue for you and your church to overcome?
Yes singing in the worship meeting is done without accompaniment.
No people would not interupt the speaker to ask questions but you would be welcome to ask questions after. Some times questions get raised at the bible class where they are answered.
I am sure there are people up here who go to church to feel good. The church is not the building but the people. The church I am a member of is made up of baptized deciples of The Lord Jesus Christ who have been added to the church.
I would say that the biggest issue is finding people willing to make the commitment. There was a couple who had belonged to a number of churches over the years who started attending our church. They sat behind and observed the Remembrance of The Lord Jesus Christ for about a year. After they joined he said the thing that had held him back so long was making the commitment. He had said to his wife “If we join this church I will have to be committed to come prepared to take part, we have always paid a minister do worship for us.”
Stanley, thank you for taking your time to answer many of my questions. It is neat to see how other people are creating a Christ-like community throughout the world. I can honestly say that the blog has finally gone international. Next time I am in Toronto I’ll have look you up. For those who don’t know, it’s closer to Toronto from Texarkana than it is to El Paso.
This is the time that if anyone else would like to ask a question they can do so, however get those questions out there within the next couple of days. I’m sure Mr. Stanley has better things to do than to continue this post for the next couple of weeks.
Thanks again Stanley.
I am glad to answer any questions. You would be most welcome to visit us any time you are up this way.
If you google plymouth brethren you can find a history of the brethren movement.
I have started a blog to post some of my meditations and I would welcome any comments. http://stanmccall.blogspot.com/
Hello Bro.Stanley, Does your church have a large children’s program and do the children go to a seperate worship area from the adults or do they attend the same services as the adults do? Does your church support other ministries in your area or around the world? Thanks for your time and comments. I visited your blog site and found it very informative and interesting.
Hi Cindy,
Considering the size of our church (about 65 members) we do a lot of work. We have Sunday School, Kids Klub every second Saturday, A young teen bible class and Saturday Night Alive once a month for teens & 20’s. We also have a children’s camp on 100acre property up north which we run in the summer.
Internationally we help support two orphanages in India and there is also a project just started to help the people in Africa which you can find a link to at this web site.
http://www.churchesofgod.info/
We have four preschool children for whom we have a Sunday school downstairs during the worship service. We don’t expect children or adults who are not saved to be worshiping God. They might sing the words and say Amen to the prayers but surely you wouldn’t think that God would accept that as worship if they have not yet accepted Jesus as their Saviour and surrendered their life to Him.
We worship The Lord each week in the bread and the wine. Nobody would want to be distracted from this worship from having to look after young children, or having to play music or look after sound systems. Young children will sit with their parents till after the communion and will go downstairs at the first hymn. The communion is the first thing that we do at the beginning of the meeting because that is why we have gathered the church together.
Do you have communion every week?
Jesus said to the woman at the well ” neither in this mountain or in Jerusalem will people worship God, but true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth for such does the Father seek to worship Him.”
Jesus was talking about collective worship by a people and He is saying it is not in a physical place so where does this collective spiritual worship take place?
Heb 10:19-22
Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus, By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh; And [having] an high priest over the house of God; Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.
In spirit we enter into the holiest place where God is. In the tabernacle the High Priest only entered in once a year but we are invited to enter in every week because Christ has entered in before us and opened up the way through the veil, that is to say, his flesh and He is our High Priest.
The unsaved just see us sitting in our seats in a boring meeting but in spirit and in truth we are worshiping in God’s presence. What place does musical instruments and projectors and praise dancers and clapping of hands have in the presence of God. We should be flat on our faces.
Hello! Wow the mission work yall do for the two orphanages in India must be a blessing to them. How many children are in the two orphanages? I have heard about so many of the orphans in Romania.
We usually participate in the Lord’s Supper about every two months,except for Thanksgiving and Christmas that are a month apart.
We have a praise team and a choir that leads the congregation in worship before the message is given. Through song,we worship God as we surrender our hearts and lives to him as we sing the message that is in the song to Him.
Yes,I agree that we all need to be flat on our faces before the one and Holy God for what He has done and is still doing for us!! What a Mighty God we serve!!!
One issue that was brought up at the National Worship Leaders Conference was that we sing songs about falling on our face. Our hearts definitely reflect a humble attitude, but what would happen if we actually did, literally, fall on our face during a worship service? This is something that our church would not be accustomed too. Someone would probably go call for an ambulance.
There is a boys orphanage and a girls orphanage. One has about sixty children and the other about eighty.
Yes Brian, someone might well call an ambulance if we were to literally fall on our faces during the service.
Why would you keep the Lord’s Supper so seldom? Is it because of the time it takes in a large church? Perhaps you need to break off into smaller groups for worship so that more people can take part. In the Church of God in Jerusalem over 3000 were saved and added to them in one day and they met from house to house. One of the things we do which saves time is we have a collection box at the
back which people can put their money in before they sit down. The box has four compartments, needy, expenses, Lord’s work (missions) and outreach. Some times there are special needs and another compartment will be opened to meet that need.
We do not collect money from people who are not members of the church however if a visitor put money in the box we wouldn’t offend them by saying we don’t want their money.
The money we give is a physical sacrifice not spiritual worship.
Also the sermon is not considered worship. There is Holy Priesthood service and Royal Priesthood service. Holy Priesthood service is to God and Royal Priesthood service towards man.
I am not totally against musical instruments in worship, just in the corporate collective worship of the church when you are doing what Heb 10:19-22 is talking about.
There is an article on music on CARM http://www.carm.org/questions/instruments.htm
They quote a number of Psalms, but that was in the Tabernacle and you have look at where they were. The tabernacle had an outer court yard where the alter was. The tabernacle had two parts, the first part where the priests served God and the inner part where the High priest went in once a year with the censor of incense and fire from the alter. From Rev. we are told the incense is the prayers of the saints and the fire from the alter speaks of Christs sacrifice which has opened up the way for us to enter in.
There is no music here in the tabernacle. In fact I don’t think there was music in the court yard because it was the heads of the house who brought the sacrifices.
We are invited to come all of the way in to God’s presence to worship Him as God’s people.
The question is asked. What does God get out of all the Christian denominations?
The way I see it is some people (churches) worship at the alter (cross), others come to the lavor others come inside to the candle stick and the table of the testimony and others come all the way in to God’s presence.
The Father seeks worshipers to worship him in spirit and in truth.
So here is the real question. Is there a new testament Church Of God (House of God) on earth today or has all the lamp stands been removed as we rear about in Revelation?