Two Churches – Three Services
Dec 31st, 2007 by Brian
I had an amazing vacation. On vacation I love to visit other churches for a time of reflection and worship without the responsibility to lead. I had visited two totally different churches in totally different cultures. Here are the churches that I learned and here is what I have learned.
Gateway Church - Saturday Night at 5:45, totally contemporary, in Southlake, Texas which is a high professional, middle class section of Dallas.
Gateway didn’t have a choir but a larger praise team. This team spanned the stage which is shaped just like ours leading the congregation that was in front of them. Gateway writes their own music which meant that Rachel and I didn’t know a song. But that was great. Because its not about you knowing the songs, its about giving your heart through music. There were times when I couldn’t carry on with the song, due to the immersion of God’s Presence.
The Sermon was well prepared and well thought out. The staff had created a devotional that the entire church was to work through, along with a fast for the first 30 days (the fast was not 30 days, just the devotional). Along with the devotional was cd’s that gave a time of worship everyday as well as a 5 minute devotional to help their members start the day. Rachel and I are excited about working through the book together.
Highland Terrace Baptist Church – Sunday Morning 9:30, totally traditional but with contemporary music, in Greenville, Texas which is a lower middle class workforce outside of Dallas.
This is where things became interesting. The previous night I sang my heart out with songs I’ve never heard, but then I come to this church where I actually knew the songs but I quietly sang. The night before, the congregation was actively involved in worship. Here, they were passing out gum.
I know what this music minister was going through. There is nothing worse then giving everything that you have into a worship service, were everyone is just staring at out with a look of complacency. People seem to have wanted to join in worship, but they held back.
I am leaving out a part of the story, but the question that I have for everyone is, why do congregations join in worship at times and not in others? There are a lot of reasons, but for the sake of learning, I need you to answer the question. What helps engage the congregation in worship?
Well here are my thoughts on worship,and that is that when we wake up on Sunday morning we either say one of two things one,that i am going to church or two, I am going to worship the Lord for who he is in my life and what He has done and is doing for me. To me when I look out from the choir as we are singing and worshiping and I see just folks staring with no expression first thing I think is wow the Lord must not be doing much in their lives. When, really He is working in all our lives,everyday, do we just take it for granted or what. All I know is that I sure wouldn’t like being a worship leader with say a hundred people looking at me and I seemed to be the only one worshiping. Either they are not seeing what the Lord is doing in their lives or they are quenching the Spirit. Either way it is sad to see. Personally, I like a mix but you know each one of the songs were written as a testimony as to how or what the Lord has done in their lives. Hey, lets TESTIFY!!
Becoming involved in corporate worship can be a matter of the heart. A lot of people don’t know how God is working or how He talks to us throughout our week. That makes our relationship weak.
However, I really wanted to worship at the second church, yet, I and everyone else held back (compared to the Saturday Night Service). Why? One of the goals for the worship ministry is to take out any distraction that keeps people from fully engaging in corporate worship. So why don’t people fully engage corporate worship?
What can we do to get people’s heart focused before they get to church?
PROBLEM: What Cindy said - it comes from the individual’s heart.
SOLUTION: I think we can help by being part of the solution. True, the actual person has to be focused but let’s LEAD by setting the example.
I know, I’m going out on a far limb, but I will be honest. If I am sitting in your congregation, perhaps the first time I’ve visited, you’ve got to make me believe that YOU believe in the God you are singing to. Is your choir REALLY excited about when we all get to heaven and there will be “no more clouds in the sky and no more tears to dim the eye”? I’m gonna venture to take that a step forward. What about your leadership and staff in the church - are they excited to be at church and at the chance to be praising God?
Let’s just add up some numbers: we have one worship leader, probably 20 choir members, six instrumentalists (who worship using their skill), one preacher, one youth minister, I’m guessing 5 or 6 deacons, 10 Sunday school teachers and myself. Now, I am from Arkansas, but if my calculations figure, that’s 45 people in a church service at Faith. I know that all 45 of us (that’s me included) are not joining in worship to praise God. Can you imagine what that would look like if 45 people were worshiping God and praising him just a hoopin’ and a hollarin’ because they love their God SO MUCH they can’t stand it!?!?! Oh my goodness – how exciting that would be – and do I have to mention, how BLESSED we would be! Worried about what others will think of you? Build a bridge and get over it! C’mon, Jesus didn’t worry what others said/thought of him – if he did, you and I wouldn’t be where we are today.
So, why not challenge our leaders to sincerely WORSHIP our God? Can we do that as a staff and if you are that leader, are you willing to step up and take the challenge?
Good point. It really is difficult to be engaged in worship when no one else is.
Let’s be careful how we identify worship. It might not be in a loud voice of song or with hands lifted high. These are emotions.
-So let’s continue with the story-
At Gateway I was able to sing loud even though I was not familiar with the songs. Here are some of my notes: 1) The praise team showed outwardly their worship - But so did the leader at Highland Hills. 2) The songs were very easy to learn. They had a very predictable melody line - But I also knew the songs at Highland Hills. 3) One difference was the praise team. The praise team at highland hills were stuck on their sheet music. The praise team at Gateway had the music memorized. Is this possible? Yes, even all the instrumentalists had their music totally memorized. This is so much easier to do with no orch. But we are keeping the orch, which also means we will keep almost everyone on music. 4)The biggest difference was the sound. I really believe that this is what hurt Highland Hills. The sound was so quiet - never over 80dbs. Gateway couldn’t have been softer than 95dbs.
So this got me thinking. How loud are you willing to sing? Loud enough for the person next to you to hear? - Yeah. Loud enough for the person in front of you to hear? - Yeah. Loud enough for the next two rows to hear? - Maybe.
What do you think?
I think ya got a point there. Loud music makes you sing along louder. Knowing that maybe everyone can’t hear you over the music. but when everyone in the congregation..or even most sing, it all blends together. Such as how everyone in a choir doesn’t have to have a good voice for the choir to sound ok.
Also abotu the songs being a testimony. I think that message is lost alot of time. If more people thought like that maybe more people would be more excited in worship.
well here is my testimony from the very first praise and worship song I ever heard in a contemporary service. It was the song Thank You Ya know the one thank you for giving your life just for me and so forth ,I had never heard that song before, wasn’t looking at the choir cause God was dealing with me, and boy was He, the song touched me so that I couldn’t stop the tears I mean they just flowed. I thought,WOW look at the words in this song what lyrics so true! They could have ended the service after that song and I would have gotten fed and worshiped the Lord with just that one song,that I had never heard before then.
So what does it mean to “worship” in a corporate worship setting? A lot of times we mean it to be singing along with the music or playing an instrument. But if someone can just sit through a worship service not participating outwardly and still worship, then we must ask, what does “worship” mean in corporate worship?
well I suppose that worship could be done silently , from our heart to God,say during the sermon,when something is said that reflects on something that has happened in your life that God was there or seen you through and the light comes on because of what the pastor has said during the message and you worship God at that very moment for what He has done in that situation for you. We can worship during the music, we can worship during the message given, we can worship during prayer and at invitation time. I feel most people do worship in one of these forms or another but to get everyone to raise their hands as a form of worship is like what Michelle said, they are just afraid of what others might think.
I think Eloise has some intresting ideas on worship. See here video on godtube here http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=586310cc95c8cb1a81cb
Alright Brian - you’ve started an excellent blog here!
Matthew - love the video from Granny - very hilarous - but she said something that caught my attention - “but your heart better be in line”. I think that is the key. Worship is an act that happens in your heart and it’s between you and God. Bro. Ross said that everyone worships differently - some with an outward expression - and some with just silence and weeping. To me it doesn’t matter how or what you do - that is totally between you and God and I am not to judge that. I agree with Matthew when he said it seems to be easier when the music is a little louder - people forget “worrying” what others think - and I know, they shouldn’t care to begin with. And I also agree with Cindy - certain lyrics in songs really relate to you at the moment in your life - mine here lately has been Holy Spirit Rain Down - I sing that song when life gets really tough and I need God to pick me up!
So, is CHRISTIAN worship corporate worship? Of course, we can praise God individually, and we are called to pray individually. But if you read Acts 2:44-47 it says this: “And all the believers met together constantly and shared everything they had. They sold their possessions and shared the proceeds with those in need. They worshiped together at the Temple each day, met in homes for the Lord’s Supper, and shared their meals with great joy and generosity- all the while praising God and enjoying the goodwill of all the people. And each day the Lord added to their group those who were being saved. ” These people worshiped/praised God while doing everything! So could “worship” mean when Christians gather and priase God for all he has done, AND what he is about to do?
There is a difference between worship and corporate worship.
Romans 12:1 “Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God’s mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual act of worship.”
Worship is not singing and cannot by done only at church. It is something that you give every single moment. Worship is giving yourself to your Father.
So with that definition, how do we worship corporately?
Could coporate worship mean praying each day Here I am Lord use me this day where and how you need to, I give my all to you?
O.K. I had to go to my Concise bible dictionary on corporate worship. It says that corporate worship is empowered by personal experience. It says that worship is the human response to the percieved presence of the divine. The response may be private and intensely personal, in the form of prayers,confessions,silence,and meditative experiences of various sorts.OH assembling together is a affirmation of what the worshipper believes.and an opportunity for mutual response to the gracious actions of God. This is why we are warned not to fosake the assembling together.
Worship is just like you said Cindy. Its when we sacrifice ourselves for Christ. This should be a moment by moment thing, but hopefully it is more than just a morning quiet time. Mark 8:23 - Jesus tells us to lay down our own desires and take up our cross. This is what worship is. It is making ourselves self-slaves (Rom 12:1).
Deffinitions: Worship - responding to God presence
Personal worship - Surrendering your life to God’s Praesence.
Corporate worship - ??? That’s the question. People can gather to worship yet not worship.
Tonight, we had one young gentleman who will sit through the worship service and will not sing a word. Why? Because the message seems to be so deep that he stands in awe of the Lord’s Presence. Is he still participating in corporate worship?
YES he was worshiping silently. If he seemed to be in awe of the words sang and God’s presence Yes he was worshiping.
Whoa! Ok, maybe Cindy is right - but are we getting on the lines of JUDGING here? Worship, prayer, the way you live your life, well that is between you and God and has nothing to do with anyone else. We will never know for sure what he was doing - hopefully - he was as Brian said, standing in awe of the Lord’s presence. All we can do is take care of our own hearts and our own doings with God and pray that God will send his Holy Spirit down and touch every person in our congregation. Yes, people can gather to worship and yet not. But that’s not for us to decide.
If worship is surrendering yourself over to the Lord, then the main concept of corporate worship is helping other people worship. Remember that worship is not about the music. The main job for corporate worship is to help people surrender.
A music ministry is to help a church better their skills with music.
BUT A WORSHIP MINISTRY is to help them church worship. This involves leaving behind our choir robes and our choir chairs and getting into the lives of the congregation. The best way for me to assist in this is to get into the lives of those whom God has trusted to me (which are those in the worship ministry).
This is the one reason why I don’t like to have music in choir specials. Which one helps people surrender, when they see someone surrendering, or when they see a choir that perfectly harmonizes behind their sheet music? Is it the perfectly rehearsed praise team or the worshipping praise team. Who leads you into surrender (worship)? Great vocalists or worshipers? What can lead you out of surrender (worship)? Quiet, cold atmosphere?
What can help the congregation engage into surrender through the worship ministry?
Good questions…
It is the Worshiping praise team and choir that helps the congregation get into worship,BUT,I feel and I feel this strongly, that if not a soul was raising their hands in worship or everyone was just sitting and staring that if my heart was where it ought to be and a song was being sung and the lyrics spoke to me and ministered to me I would have to worship without ya! This also falls into what bro.Ross says all the time about not looking to see what your neighbor beside you is doing or caring what anyone else thinks. Just worship. But at the same time seeing someone surrendering can be a blessing as well. It really blesses me to see some of the guys in the choir closing their eyes and singing and praising the Lord. By the way, that song you sang Sunday Bro.Brian,Oh What A Saviour, was a special to us from our worship leader! Great Song!!
Also one of the choir members was talking to me about her idea of getting the congregation more involved in the worship. she suggested that maybe during one of the songs that the choir go into the congregation singing and mix with them during the song.
I think you need to find that line between being perfect and being on fire for God. My opinion is this: Practice is for Perfection and Sunday is for being on fire. If your choir/instruments practice a song to the point of perfection – they know it, they are confident. Come Sunday, instead of focusing on hitting the high note or playing the instrumental lead, well, all that has gone from their mind and they enter this state of being “involved” – worshiping – which is what you are going for. I hate to say this, but your congregation will follow the choir and music minister and will react accordingly. I think it’s both what Brain said above – it’s both the perfectly rehearsed praise team WHICH TURNS INTO the worshipping praise team! I will tell you what turns me cold/off during a song service: the media screens not working properly; the sound being off; the soloist who doesn’t practice with the music; the musicians not keeping time; oh and the person that thinks they are too good for their own good and not glorifying God whether playing an instrument or singing. (Remember God gave you that talent and if you don’t use it for His good – He can snatch it away.) People can sense / see / hear all of these things and I know, I am a picky person, but this is what I hear complained about the most. That’s all I have – I think the Wednesday night perfectly rehearsed praise team turns into the Sunday morning worshipping praise team!
AMEN on the media screen being on time with the music AND the changes!!! Personally, I take my own lyrics with me when I solo. There is nothing worse than a stage frightened soloist when the words to their song aren’t on the screen!!
Also, You can practice til the cows come home and have it memorized on Wed but when Sunday comes, if you don’t have all the JUNK out of the way so our hearts and minds can be open to worship or recieve that wed practice won’t mean a thing.
Great discussion here.
Remember that worship is not participation in music. Worship means surrender. Our jobs as worship leaders (which is the band, choir, and praise team) is to assist in surrender. Music really helps people get their act together. Music gives off emotions. Our job is to use these emotions to help people surrender fully to God not the music program. Some people love to clap after specials and songs, but to us, that is not what we are after. We are after a person giving their life over to the Lord every single day. The goal is not to hit every right note.
If leaders are not worshipping (I a state of surrender) then how can people follow them? This is where all that practice comes into place. We need to be surrendering in our own personal lives first, BUT in a corporate worship setting, we need to be focused on surrender, not the music. Practice helps us focus on the music so that we are confident on Sunday so that we can worship and lead others into worship.
I’m not done yet. I have had to make some really really difficult rules and enforce them. If Faith Baptist Church wants me, their worship pastor, to actually worship on Sunday, then everything must happen on Wednesday. “If it happens on Sunday, it better happen first on Wednesday.” If you are singing or playing on Sunday, you must be there for practice. I don’t want to worry about a monitor mix. I don’t want to worry about mic batteries or worry about the key change coming up. It distracts me from worship. If I’m not confident then I cannot worship (surrender). When mistakes happen on Sunday, I only ask “Why didn’t we notice this on Wednesday.”
I agree. Any distraction takes away from the (surrender to worship). For some it is literally ANY distraction. People coming in late for church,the words to the song not on the screens is what I see here lately to be really distracting the congregation. They stop singing and begin to focus on the worship leader,the choir is looking at the media box and this is of course if it is a newer song that everyone isn’t familiar with.So,any of those kind of things can hinder our worship. But, then nobody is perfect and these are just things that need to be worked out and prayed about.
I just read your blog about worship. A book that is worth reading on worship is “Are We Missing Something” by Keith Dorricott. It is available at www.kdpublications.com
A brother in Christ
Stan.
Hello Stanley and welcome to our worship blog! Thanks for your input and referral of the book! I am not familiar with your name so do you go to Faith? If not,where do you go to church and how do yall worship?
Again,welcome to the blog,
Cindy
No Cindy I don’t go to Faith. I am in Hamilton Ontario and I belong to a brethren church. Now you will find what I have to say about worship a lot diffrent than what you are use to.
We have no minister, no choir, no musical instruments in our worship meeting and no worship leader. The hymns in our worship hymn book are written in the plural for collective worship. Collective worship is not about what God has done for me but we worship God for His Son and what he has done in bringing us to Him.
When we gather for worship on Sunday morning a brother will go to the table and give thanks for the bread and that will be passed around for all in the church to partake of, then the same brother will go to the table and give thanks for the wine and it will be passed around for all in the church to partake of.
The remainder of the meeting will consist of brothers in the church leading the congregation in prayer (worship) or giving out a hymn. Everyone sings the hymns, there is no distractions.
The meeting is supposed to be an hour but it often goes over time because there are so many people taking part.
You should come prepared with your offering of worship from what the Lord has given you from his word during the week.
After the worship service a brother will minister to the saints from the word of God.
We have a praise band but that is for praise meetings not collective worship of the church. Our singing is better at our worship meetings than at our praise meetings. In fact often the praise band will stop playing just to let the congregation appreciate the words more.
Stan, this is really interesting. I would like to create a new post just to allow us to interview you. Would you be willing to let me and the others throw a few questions towards you?
Here in Southwest AR. there is such a heavy pressure to entertain the congregation. They like it fast and upbeat. There is also an understood order of service. I’m sure that some people who just read your post are thinking that you might be a little far out there. But I am hoping that they will understand that music has very little to do with worship.
Would be glad to answer any questions. I agree with your last statement. Many people think music is their gift, it is not one of the gifts of the spirit it is a talent that can be learned.
Do you have a web site for your church? I would like to know what you mean by an understood order of service. Where I worship we remember the Lord in the breaking of the bread and the wine every weak. How often do it?
What I mean as an order of service is, every church in this town does the same thing every Sunday. It’s very predictable (which is not all bad). We have one song, a welcome time, two songs, offering, one song, someone sings a special, then there is a sermon, with an invitation at the end. Unfortunately many people assume that this is the proper way of having a worship service. Others have never heard of any other way.
A while ago I was having a conversation with a friend and I asked him. What is the reason that we should join a church?
He replied, for fellowship, to grow spiritually, for teaching, to serve God, and to worship God.
I replied you don’t have to join a church to do any of that, you just have to attend. In fact you can worship God in your own home and meet with like minded Christians in your own home.
The reason for joining a church is to worship God collectively the way God wants us to worship Him.
The woman at the well said to Jesus, we worship in this mountain, and you say in Jerusalem is the place to worship. (she is talking about going to a place for collective worship)
Jesus said, the time is coming when neither in this mountain or in Jerusalem shall people worship God, but the true worshipers will worship the Father in Spirit and in Truth. (Jesus is talking about collective worshipers)
True worshipers worship God, Gods way, not the popular way. We are not trying to entertain God.
Thanks Stan for your reply. Sounds very interesting and I see that Brian has responded to ya! He is our worship leader at our church. Glad to have you aboard our Faith blog!
http://www.cgault.co.uk/hp/shop.asp?cat=hymn_books
This is a link to where we get our worship hymn book. It is the PHSS hymn book which stands for Psalms, Hymns and Spiritual Songs.
It is divided into two sections with the first 150 hymns for collective worship.